A good example of a bad idea... trying to legislate societal transformation
Sunday, March 22, 2009 at 6:35PM Now, let me start with a clear disclaimer. I am not sure if the information supplied in the post I have copied below is accurate. I have not had a chance to verify whether it is in fact legal for the British Police to engage persons under the age of 16 after 9pm in central London.
However, if it is true this is a perfect example of a bad idea to try and transform society by punitive legislation!
I would however venture that I have noticed, with increasing alarm, the lack of respect and restraint that young people in the UK have for any form of authority. It kind of reminds me a bit of the 'punks' of the late 1970's (well at least those who adopted anarchism to deconstruct power and oppressive systems in society). On my trip to London last week I had a few opportunities to see example of how groups of teenagers got completely out of hand in London. Twice I witnessed groups of teenagers create an absolute 'war zone' in restaurants (in fact both cases took place in McDonalds restaurants where I was using the free wifi). These young people were extremely loud, use very vulgar language, threw ice and items of food at one another, and were abusive to staff. In one other incident I witnessed rude and abusive behaviour on the underground. And a final example was seeing more than one young person being verbally abusive to their parent.
It is clear the there is an element of discipline that is missing among the youth of the United Kingdom. Moreover, many of the persons I spoke to were very aware of this reality and were at a loss as to how this worrying fact can be resolved. The culture of individual human rights seems to have been so strongly applied that it is diminishing collective rights.
This bit of legislation is a clear example of that - the state has taken a reactive measure to try and deal with abusive youths in London by curtailing their freedom of association and movement. Such reactive and punitive measures will not solve the problem, they merely deal with the symptom in a particular location (so the youths will choose to congregate elsewhere). The problem is not the time (i.e., after 9pm), neither is is geography (i.e., a certain location in central London), the issue is an erosion of values. No amount of oppressive legislation can deal with that!
So, I am worried about civil liberties in the UK. As it is you can hardly move a meter without being filmed by a myriad of closed circuit surveillance cameras! What's next? Removing people of certain faith groups, people who do not look like the majority of the population... I seem to remember another attempt to control their population in this manner. Their leader was a man named Adolf Hitler.
We need longer lasting and more significant solutions to real problems. Reactive solutions that deal only with the symptom and not the cause will simply not transform society!
Well, here's the story that informed this post (from here):
Any thoughts? What do you think about the state of young people in the UK, and what do you think the solution is (if you feel there's a problem)? Also, what do you think about this curfew, and the state of civil liberties in the UK?
London cops have been given the power to "disperse" anyone under 16, gathered in groups of two or more, from almost all of central London, after 9PM. The police don't have to see the kids doing anything wrong, they only have to believe "the presence or behaviour of a group of two or more persons in any public place in the relevant locality has resulted, or is likely to result, in any members of the public being intimidated, harassed, alarmed or distressed."the kids are alright (via Wonderland)
If you’re observant, in central London, you may have seen this notice casually cable-tied to a lamppost. From afar, it looks like a council planning application, or parking bay suspension. It’s actually notifying you that you’re now subject to an anti-social behaviour order, and the Police (and the not-really-Police Community Support Officers) have special powers to remove you from this area if they feel like it. These dispersal areas cover large swathes of London, and other cities in England. There are now over 1000 such areas.It’s ambiguously worded, but it institutes law that in other words may not seem so palatable. There’s a curfew for unsupervised under-16s, from 9pm to 6am. Any group of 2 or more people can be broken up and/or that the member of the group have to leave the designated area (if they do not live there). Crucially, police do not have to see actual anti-social behaviour, but a constable in uniform has reasonable grounds for believing that the presence or behaviour of a group of two or more persons in any public place in the relevant locality has resulted, or is likely to result, in any members of the public being intimidated, harassed, alarmed or distressed...
Reader Comments (6)
I remember, though, as a child, taking a train in the UK, and it had been ripped apart by soccer hooligans. What IS different from those days, though, as you say, is the surveillance.
That's not reactive, it's proacive. It is intended to stop disturbances before they start.
That sort of thing was not just done by Hitler, but by Vorster & Co. People were banned etc not for anything they had done, but for things that they might do.
But in the interests of justice it is better to arrest and punish people who actually cause a disturbance than just because some official thinks they might do so.
Your information is correct, the police in the UK do have the right to break up any gathering, but I think it is actually at any time.
It isn't just young people there was a recent case were a group of pensioners who met to chat on a bench at the end of the street were dispersed because there was a noise complaint.
The oppression of young people is particularly bad though. An element of what you saw in London is a reaction to this I'm sure.
What an opportunity for the church to demonstrate love instead of law to young people.
There is a problem with excessive drinking amongst teenagers (and lots of others as well). This masks a general level of despair amongst teenagers. We use a double-decker bus as a mobile youth club and visit various locations around our town of Wigan. The surprising thing is that when we visit deprived areas behaviour is good. The behaviour problems are in relatively affluent areas.
BTW in the UK you and your family can be evicted because of the behaviour of your child -- even if that behaviour is a result of mental illness. People have been given anti-social behaviour orders(ASBO) for practicing musical instruments -- break an ASBO and its a prison sentence.
I guess govenments don't do Love they do Law, but our current government has taken this to an control freak extreme.
The last two weekends I have visited churches were people got parking tickets whilst in church because the town council changed the parking regulations to include Sunday without any special notices. They simply made suitable changes to the small signs.
Added to which the new laws prohibiting the taking of photos of policemen.
So they really have become a police state, quite quickly too.
Hey, i'm not sure why, but i notice my CPU goes to 100% when on your webpage.
Something doing something (?)
peace ;-)
Forty years ago I took a photo of a policeman on a bicycle and earned myself an interrogation, well, two, actually.